Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

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Rocksolid
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Rocksolid » 08 Dec 2017, 15:45

bassmaniac69 wrote:
08 Dec 2017, 15:07
Off memory they were not the Neo speakers. All Mesa speakers are custom specced by Mesa, so off the shelf Eminence will not do. Back when I ran the Mesa line we had the 12" speakers on hand, so I would be surprised if Pro Audio did not have any on hand. They are not cheap though of course, at least they were not back when I was running it.

Also, Pro Audio is technically no longer - the actual store front has closed down and is currently being moved/merged with Better Music, so thats why you may not have received an answer. My advice would be to call Better Music, ask for Rowan (he runs Mesa now) and tell him Loz recommended you call him. He's a good guy and should be able to help.
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noplanb
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by noplanb » 08 Dec 2017, 22:05

My understanding is that Eminence OEM drivers have different Thiele-Small parameters to any brand model driver. It means that replacing 2 drivers will give less than optimal result for either pair of drivers.
A 'surgery' alternative would be:
- Divide the box in 2 centrally with a sealed ply partition to make 2 boxes
- The side with original drivers then needs 50% of the port volume for the whole box - if there were 2 ports, then this side gets one port
- Then measure the volume of the remaining side (not including the port), put in something like 2 x neo drivers of your choice, let this thread know, then either myself or Pete will give you a port size for the second side
- Wire up the '2' boxes exactly as before, if the impedances of the new drivers is the same
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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » 08 Dec 2017, 23:16

raybass wrote:
08 Dec 2017, 15:04
They're 100 % neo...
Here's the link to the specs..
http://www.proaudio.com.au/shoppingcart ... binet.html
I've seen couple of retail sites say that they're neo, but the Mesa site doesn't. I'm more inclined to believe Mesa. It's easy enough to find out, just post a picture of the magnet. With detailed dimensions it's easy to identify the frame/motor as well, which will reveal which of the stock drivers it's a variant of.
My understanding is that Eminence OEM drivers have different Thiele-Small parameters to any brand model driver
Sometimes that's the case, but not always. An OEM driver is literally assembled like a menu from a Chinese restaurant. You can choose a frame/motor from one list, a cone from another, spider and surround from another, voice coil from another. The number of possible permutations is almost endless. However, for a given cabinet size and intended usage there's only about a plus/minus 20% usable spec range, so the differences between even a dozen OEM drivers won't be that much, and the main difference will be the frame/motor. In many cases an OEM driver varies from stock by the tiniest detail, for instance a spade connector rather than a more expensive screw connector. Also note that the main reason for using OEM rather than off the shelf isn't performance, it's cost. When Eminence designs a new driver line they test dozens of versions, all using the same frame/motor, and it's the one that works best that ends up going into their retail line. What ends up available as OEM is all the remaining versions.

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noplanb
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by noplanb » 09 Dec 2017, 05:42

^Nice insight. Thanks!
I see..............basses!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » 09 Dec 2017, 06:23

One other insider tidbit: speaker manufacturers don't design their own OEM drivers. They tell the driver manufacturer what price and performance they're looking for, in that order of importance, and then the driver manufacturer sends them samples to choose from. If they find one that's 'close but not quite' then the driver manufacturer might make up another sample or two, swapping out one or more components. What speaker manufacturers don't do is to tell the driver manufacturer "This is what I want for price, specs and response, now build it for me". It's more like the driver manufacturer tells the speaker manufacturer "This is what we can give you for specs and response for the price you're willing to pay".

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bassbass
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by bassbass » 09 Dec 2017, 12:41

what about a re-cone?
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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » 09 Dec 2017, 12:57

To do a re-cone you need the correct cone/surround, spider and voice coil.

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bobbybdazzler
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by bobbybdazzler » 09 Dec 2017, 14:47

Thanks for the fantastic information, Pro Audio have contacted me and will get onto it early next week. Here are the pics of the drivers in question. I have my fingers crossed that they have a couple of old units hanging around.
Image
Image
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Petebass
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Petebass » 09 Dec 2017, 14:48

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
09 Dec 2017, 06:23
One other insider tidbit: speaker manufacturers don't design their own OEM drivers. They tell the driver manufacturer what price and performance they're looking for, in that order of importance, and then the driver manufacturer sends them samples to choose from. If they find one that's 'close but not quite' then the driver manufacturer might make up another sample or two, swapping out one or more components. What speaker manufacturers don't do is to tell the driver manufacturer "This is what I want for price, specs and response, now build it for me". It's more like the driver manufacturer tells the speaker manufacturer "This is what we can give you for specs and response for the price you're willing to pay".
And let's not forget the minimum order is/was 100+ for an OEM speaker. That's all lot for anyone thinking of starting up, but business is business. The more you buy, the more likely the manufacturer will be willing to take a smaller margin.
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Petebass
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Petebass » 09 Dec 2017, 14:50

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
09 Dec 2017, 12:57
To do a re-cone you need the correct cone/surround, spider and voice coil.
This! Anything but the exact same components means your speaker will sound different when it comes back to you.
* 2 Stingray 5's (one heavily modded), Ibanez SR805, Ashbory, + more...
* Carvin B1500, Epifani PS1000, Ashdown Superfly amps.
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bassbass
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by bassbass » 09 Dec 2017, 14:59

what I mean is: have you enquired about genuine re-cone kits?
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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » 10 Dec 2017, 00:20

bobbybdazzler wrote:
09 Dec 2017, 14:47
Thanks for the fantastic information, Pro Audio have contacted me and will get onto it early next week. Here are the pics of the drivers in question. I have my fingers crossed that they have a couple of old units hanging around.
I can safely say that you won't find an off the shelf to match those, because they're Frankenstein drivers. The frame is what Eminence has used for thirty years with ceramic drivers, like the Delta Pro 12, but the magnet is a first generation Neo that they used on the original Deltalites, which were discontinued circa 2005, when the Deltalite II were introduced. So yes, they are neo, and those retailers still advertising them as neo are using ad copy that they've had on hand for over ten years. Mesa no longer lists them as neo since they probably haven't used those drivers in ten years.
A re-cone will be difficult at best, more likely impossible as far as duplicating the original drivers is concerned. The surround configuration is the same as the 2512, but the dust cover isn't. The 2512 had a totally porous dust cover, revealing a dome shaped aluminum pole piece extension behind it, for added cooling. The pictured dust cover is vented, but only by a small piece of porous fabric in the middle, and it's too shallow to fit a pole piece extension behind it. My guess is that these were early prototypes of the 2512 that never made it into production, probably due to overheating of the magnet.

As a replacement, I'd use either the Deltalite II 2512 for neo or the Delta Pro 12-450 for ceramic, but the deal breaker is the 16 ohm impedance. The Delta 12B is 16 ohms. I shy away from it because the xmax is only 2.7mm, which limits low end output. However, the Deltalite 12 that the Mesa driver borrowed the magnet from had only 2.9mm xmax, so they may actually be comparable. For that matter they may share the same 2.5 inch voice coil. 16 ohm 2.5 inch coils are rare with Eminence, so I doubt that they have many to choose from.

If you can't find original replacements I'd be inclined to use the Delta 12B, since you pretty much have to use 16 ohm drivers, or replace all four with either 2512 or Delta Pro 12-450.

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empyrean
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by empyrean » 10 Dec 2017, 08:13

I bought a Mesa 212 cab a few years ago that had a crook driver. Mesa replacements were very costly. I ended up getting a re-coned one from the States via ebay for a reasonable price. Unfortunately after installation it sounded like crap. "Farting" at all volume levels. Had a whinge to the seller and he agreed to send 2 x re-cone kits out (free postage I think was the deal). I got Atilla Tanka in Thomastown to re-cone both speakers. He said there was not enough glue on the surrounds I think. I cant say if they are up to the originals but it is still a great sounding cab with no issues with high power or volume - I use it with a GB Streamliner 900. And I have a spare driver just in case.
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bobbybdazzler
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by bobbybdazzler » 15 Dec 2017, 08:14

I have ordered two of the original drivers from John at Pro Audio, they should arrive around mid to late January. A little on the expensive side but they are original equipment and The service I received from John ( a fellow Bass player) has been impeccable. I’ll post some pics when they arrive and let you know how they preform. Thanks for all your help/ suggestions.
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bassmaniac69
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Re: Mesa Powerhouse Drivers

Post by bassmaniac69 » 15 Dec 2017, 15:37

Good to hear mate. John is a top bloke and all round champ. His knowledge of amplifiers and mesa in particular led him to have quite a lot of input into the latest Mesa valve amp series and helped with their prototype etc. Not a bad bass player either :)

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