Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Jun 2018, 20:37

I've no doubt Wilson spun a fine story for your bro!
Whos hating?
I thought the News report was cute because on the one hand it was reporting the violence of some, then on the other trying to drum up sympathy (for the same?) with emotive stuff. Confusing.
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packrat
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by packrat » 24 Jun 2018, 21:16

You don’t get to lock people up in an illegal detention camp for years and then whine about how they seem broken afterwards. That’s exactly what this government has done.

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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Jun 2018, 21:48

lock people up ..... they seem broken afterwards.
It's true that people are affected by incarceration. But I don't think there's any reason or evidence to show that if you went in fine, you could came out as a threatening child molester. Otherwise our gaol system would be turning out a lot of the same.
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packrat
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by packrat » 24 Jun 2018, 23:19

Our gaol system *is* turning out a lot of the same. Do you think rape is consequence free?

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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Jun 2018, 23:27

I'm puzzled. What information have you seen that shows being gaoled significantly increases your chances of becoming a child-molester or death-threatener? (if you weren't before)
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packrat
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by packrat » 24 Jun 2018, 23:47

You missed a step. There’s a significant link between victims of abuse continuing the cycle. The other link is abuse in goals.

eric
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by eric » 24 Jun 2018, 23:59

noplanb wrote:
24 Jun 2018, 21:48
lock people up ..... they seem broken afterwards.
It's true that people are affected by incarceration. But I don't think there's any reason or evidence to show that if you went in fine, you could came out as a threatening child molester. Otherwise our gaol system would be turning out a lot of the same.
You're making a range of very broad assumptions about the people in those camps and prisons.

Firstly it's hard to imagine the people on Manus Island having gone into those camps as 'fine'. They are refugees, they have stated as much, and been found to be so. Otherwise they would have be deported back to their country of origin. Being refugees they will have been able to substantiate that they are at significant risk of death or persecution if returned, and all too often that substantiation is evidenced by scars from torture, or stories of watching family and friends killed or maimed by their governments. As such, they often have experienced trauma far beyond anything that would haunt the nightmares of your typical Aussie softcock, and that can reshape a personality. Witness the effect of trauma on police officers, ambos, soldiers, and you'll hear story after story of how they changed, and not for the better.

Secondly, they aren't in prison. They are being held in detention, effectively indefinitely. In Australia the amount of people that are being detained with a similar sentence is very, very low, and they are amongst the most notorious and vile criminals imaginable. Yet this is the sentence handed out to people who dare to attempt to find a place of safety, to restart their lives, and this is what we do to them.

Finally, prison system rarely do much more than hold criminals for a period of time, and then release them back into the community, and that's on a good day. The reality is that the social isolation and brutality of prisons tends to inflict it's own trauma. Places like Turana in Victoria were regarded as finishing schools for career criminals, and the adult prisons weren't, and even now, aren't much better. Sure there's programs there, but programs given to people that are in an artificial environment, or engaging out of boredom and a chance of early release are nowhere as effective as community rehabilitation programs.

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veebass
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 25 Jun 2018, 05:00

packrat wrote:
24 Jun 2018, 21:16
You don’t get to lock people up in an illegal detention camp for years and then whine about how they seem broken afterwards. That’s exactly what this government has done.
See my comment about blaming the detainees.
Libs have made an "art form" of blaming victims.
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veebass
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 25 Jun 2018, 05:21

eric wrote:
24 Jun 2018, 23:59

Firstly it's hard to imagine the people on Manus Island having gone into those camps as 'fine'. They are refugees, they have stated as much, and been found to be so. Otherwise they would have be deported back to their country of origin.

Exactly. There's the "beauty" of the Morrison/ Dutton approach.
Attack that very point.

Run an argument that they were fine and still are fine. They are Iranian playboys and they are play acting. They are perverts. The camps are tropical paradises. They wear expensive clothes. They return to Iran on holidays once they get a protection visa to live in Sydney (The Australian 16/5/17), while never being allowed in Australia- how does that even work? Everyone involved in this is a "lefty activist" and has an agenda to fill Australia with brown people except the Coalition/ PHONP, one particular guard and The Australian, whose motives are pure. The deaths in detention are the detainees fault. They take our jobs and at the same time laze around on welfare- Shrodingers Regugee? Overemphasise those whose cases haven't been determined- the detainees fault again. Above all, it is all Labor's fault and never mention the Malaysia Solution.
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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 25 Jun 2018, 09:46

There is a difference between 'blaming the victim', and calling for self-responsibility where it is due.
To repeat, not all transferees were reported as troublesome - only some.
My comments are specifically as regard the context of Manus, and treat things on a point by point basis.
having gone into those camps as 'fine'.
The same as any of: Criminals going into the gaol system; POWS of WW1, WW2 and Korea; descendents of Germans who settled in SA in 1836, and were incarcerated in Port Adelaide during WW1 (although they were most likely to be healthiest psychologically).
Otherwise ... deported back to their country of origin.

From the book, the transferees were being assessed, some were offered local resettlement early, and repatriation options were available for all. Maybe it was less damaging politically to not deport anyone outright?
significant risk of death or persecution
Yes, but not all. The substantiation was the point, and the reason for the limbo state. From the book, some had indications of having come from a wealthy background and/or indications of escaping retribution for criminal activities, or the law, for the same.
watching family and friends killed or maimed
Yes, but many apparently still had wives and children in their home country. One such transferee accepted a repatriation package, allegedly to then turn up in Turkey awaiting to get into Germany as a refugee.
often have experienced trauma far beyond anything that would haunt the nightmares
As did displaced persons coming to Australia from most Euro countries after WW2, and from Vietnam after that war; and Italian POWs incarcerated in Cowra after WW2 - some brought their families here, some returned home.
effect of trauma on police officers, ambos, soldiers
Yes, but there appears no significant evidence over the many decades of such people becoming child-molesters/groomers and death-threateners. But sure, many of them are PTSD and more.
held in detention, effectively indefinitely
As were German descendents in WW1 in Port Adelaide, and Italians in Cowra.
vile criminals imaginable
The incarceration environment of the transferees compared to the above, is a lot different, according to the book. Open gates, service/janitorial staff coming and going, regular access to case-workers, social media, regular excursions to the beaches and Lorengau. Not a holiday camp, but not a gaol either.
community rehabilitation programs.
Which a I guess is why they were all offered resettlement in Lorengau.

My above response is detailed to show it is not 'one size fits all', but complex; and to say that *some* transferees appear extremely irresponsible to the point of making them undesirable citizens. I see no reason whatever for excusing this sort of behaviour (child-molesting etc). If you think about it there would have to be a court decision, which would be PNGs, to decide that they were 'undesirable' and then deport them. That process is certainly not cut and dried - which could be why it has not happened. No simple answer there.
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veebass
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 25 Jun 2018, 10:25

A lot of trust seems to be being placed in the word of a guy who won't even speak under his own name, appears to be the darling of the far right atm and may well be breaking federal law, if he was even there, while the opinion of health professionals who operate under strict ethical codes seems to be being dismissed because they are "activists".
The world just gets curiouser and couriouser. :rollno:
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packrat
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by packrat » 25 Jun 2018, 10:41

noplanb wrote:
25 Jun 2018, 09:46
The incarceration environment of the transferees compared to the above, is a lot different, according to the book. Open gates, service/janitorial staff coming and going, regular access to case-workers, social media, regular excursions to the beaches and Lorengau. Not a holiday camp, but not a gaol either.
Are you serious? The camps were opened only after the closed camps were deemed illegal locally. They'd spend years in tightly regulated closed camps before that embarrassing (and shambolic) backdown. Painting this as a holiday camp is pretty rage-inducing, and I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with it.

Don't you recall the exclusion of international observes and the press from these camps as the government attempted to run with the 'no children' lie?

B>

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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 25 Jun 2018, 15:30

First, I have just had a look at
(I can't agree with their aims, though)
I must agree that PNG is no place to settle due to raskols, if you have no 'wontok'. So yes Lorengau can be dangerous.
Yes gates opened April 2016 onward.
Holiday camp? no, I've always said its *not* a holiday camp - but not a gaol either going by what I read. It was a detention centre - it did have excursions, to Lorengau and (supervised) to beaches, and yes I agree it would have a psychological impact on residents.

The whole thing stinks and is hard to get to the truth - the link above has the case of the person who died from infection - simple enough to treat, one would think; so was it self-inflicted by someone believing he would stay in AU as a result, or not? The others injured - some would attest to the danger of Lorengau, but others may not be the whole story - particularly if drugs or grooming are involved.

I can't comment about 'no children' for elsewhere - there was no mention of women or children at Manus - other than locals.
As I've said all along, there is no black or white here. I certainly don't have answers, but only to say that there is more to it than either the Manus book, or an organisation like RAC can say.
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veebass
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 26 Jun 2018, 15:47

Another day, another lie from Michaelia Cash.

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ozrider
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by ozrider » 26 Jun 2018, 22:31

Another day, another liberal party attempt to suppress wages and create worker insecurity. Handouts to big-business is fine, anyone trying to get an education and then go on to contribute to society... nup lets bleed them dry, there's only the trickle-down effect in the liberal party playbook.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/ ... te/9912174

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