Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 23 Nov 2017, 21:48

"Are you claiming causality?"
All in the same package. From the main progenitor of SSC program:
""So we've gotta think about really explicit, visible cues, that are very clearly about gender and sexual diversity. So we think very specific posters work really well; very specific messages, trans school leadership, very specific things written in the school newsletter that Safe School Coalition is about supporting gender and sexual diversity. Not about <unclear> diversity, not about stopping bullying; - about gender and sexual diversity, about same-sex attracted, about being transgender, about being lesbian, gay, bisexual - say the words - transgender, intersex - not just being nice to everyone - everyone's great."


"One example of possible poor execution of a judges ruling" - And another one was Obergefell v. Hodges, which the MA case judge used:
"Justice Anthony Kennedy sided with the liberal wing of the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision that one-man one woman marriage laws violate the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The majority decision, written by Kennedy, held that marriage is a "fundamental right" guaranteed by the "due process" clause of the 14th and can't be denied to same-sex couples."
One the one hand we have judges (in the US) making unprecedented (poor execution?) rulings such as above, and yet the outcomes are "hardly solid ground" to allow religious protections?
"What if nothing explodes"
Well it already has for these parents (no opt-out), and thats even before SSM, so no prizes for guessing its not going to get any better:
Janine's comment
"My 10 year old daughter has come home from school asking me, “What is transgender?” The other day she told me that her male teacher asked the class of all girls, “Did they know what a stiffy is?” I believe my girls are being groomed for prostitution in marriage or open relationships. My daughters have a sex club at school (a sexuality club in order to explore their sexual desires, lusts, passions and feelings). The Victorian State government dictates all Victorian students to explore their sexuality and experience transgender so they have to role play this in class..."
http://australianmarriage.org/book-tour ... -van-gend/
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narcdor
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by narcdor » 23 Nov 2017, 23:42

You're conflating so many things I'm not sure where to start. Oh yeah, with marriage, and just marriage, not safe schools. Safe schools is not SSM. Unless school age children are getting married now under the safe schools program. There appear to be some long bows drawn and individual opinions stated in your safe schools objections, but I don't know enough about it to say. It doesn't seem to me like the program would change one bit if some adults could be legally married now or not.

We're past the point of debating SSM existing and looking at how it impacts religious freedoms, if at all.

The poor execution is not the judge, but that people are fallible and eventually make mistakes in all things given enough time. So how did this lead to religious persecution requiring specific protections?

I couldn't get through more than two minutes of the first video so from that and your quotes these parents worlds have not exploded due to SSM so you're talking safe schools now not freedom of religion.

Is there any example showing valid legal religious persecution post SSM?
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 24 Nov 2017, 04:46

Howard is just offensive.
Mr Howard believes the lack of advocacy from high profile no voters in the Coalition, along with more funding for the 'yes' campaign, were key elements in why same sex marriage prevailed.
'It was carried because the majority of Australians, given the opportunity, wanted to support a change,' he said.[/qu

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/politics ... ard_231117
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by Rickles » 24 Nov 2017, 08:29

Yes he is. I am also offended that he wasn't jailed for being a warmonger. Even his pommie counterpart was dragged over the coals for their involvement, but he gets off with no mention. Though, the more he sticks his neck out the more likely it will be chopped off. Maybe he reckons he can do a Tony Abbott. Is Howard still their best chance at winning the next election. Whoa boy!
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Nov 2017, 08:51

"You're conflating" - you asked about trans kids, so I gave a reference that links them.
"just marriage, not safe schools"
Are you just claiming a comfortable position to hold in one's mind, regardless of what actual events show?
I've given references that:
-Homosexual activists state that SSM and radical sexualisation of schoolkids (recruiting) are part of their demands
-Legal precedence that SSM has been used to justify SSC-style programs (which no doubt may be used as reference in subsequent cases)
Ontario is also a good case where SSM is just one part of activist/deconstructionist-driven series of events that result in change to traditional family structure and to sexualise children.
So yes, you can just view SSM as something completely isolated, but evidence shows association and motivation in common.

"how did this lead to religious persecution"
Parents do want their children sexualised. So parents want opt-out. In the MA case, the judge said no, but instead "take your children to a private school". If they go to a private school, they want that school to have a policy of not employing anyone who supports homosexuality. So the school wants reassurance they will not be taken through anti-discrimination process or action. The school usually has a religious name and espouses traditional Christian ethics. It is a matter of joining the dots.

The call for 'religious' protections appears to be a misnomer - it is easily fobbed off as just pertaining to ministers of religion - but it is really conscientious exemptions across society.

"have not exploded due to SSM" - SSM is an enabler. Looking at it the other way, if AU had voted no, then it would be harder for activists to prosecute their agenda (of which SSM is part of anyway).

"valid legal religious persecution post SSM" - not sure what you mean by 'valid', in this context, but I here is what I posted earlier:
Illinois: Christian bed and breakfast owners are being sued by homosexuals for not allowing the use of their facilities for a gay "civil union" ceremony.
Aus: Two Christian charities have been granted official permission to keep their board members’ names secret on the grounds of “public safety”, after abuse and threats from gay activists forced an IBM executive to sever his links with a Christian education group. At least a correctly worded Act would make such harrassment obviously illegal.
Chile: Printer of Christian faith sued 3 times for refusing to print SS wedding invitations.
UK: Religious schools teaching that same-sex relationships (etc) are against religious doctrine are deemed to be breaking the law (Jewish school not teaching about sexual orientation to children as young as 3)
And we've already had a Catholic Archbishop in Tas suffer the beginning of legal proceedings over distributing their doctrine on marriage to their own members. This will just get worse without appropriate religious protections.
And
Section 37 of the existing law grants specific exemptions from sections protecting LGBT people to “religious, educational or medical institutions” – permitting them to discriminate “in order to maintain the religious ethos of the institution”.
However, the Equality (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill – which passed through its final stages in the Dáil late last night without opposition – strips the exemptions from the law.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/12/03/ir ... ality-law/

The Catholic organization, the Knights of Columbus, in Port Coquitlam, BC, was required to pay a fine for causing “hurt feelings” when it denied the use of the organization’s hall to a lesbian couple to celebrate their “wedding”. A Mennonite-owned summer camp in Manitoba was found guilty of discrimination by the Manitoba Human Rights Commission because it refused to rent its premises to a homosexual choir.
Religion based social services, such as counselling and adoption services, are now required to conform to the same-sex marriage law.
Within school boards, teachers and other individuals are being forced to deny their religious beliefs and freedom of speech by being required to promote same-sex marriage, and publicly refraining from expressing any opposition to it. A teacher and school counselor in British Columbia, Dr. Chris Kempling published a letter in his local newspaper objecting to homosexuality. This resulted in his suspension for one month without pay by the BC College of Teachers, which alleged that Mr. Kempling’s letters “poisoned the school environment.” There was no evidence to support this, nor was there any complaint made against him by any student, parent or supervisor. Subsequently, Dr. Kempling was a candidate for the Christian Heritage Party in the 2006 federal election, and, in that capacity, published a letter in his local newspaper opposing same-sex marriage. He received a further suspension of three months without pay.
http://www.realwomenofcanada.ca/same-se ... ed-canada/

The Canada example is huge.
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by vin-tone » 24 Nov 2017, 09:09

I think you need to just accept that homosexuality is no longer scorned by society.

Not only that - speech that discriminates is deemed offensive. We get that you disagree with that but... well too bad.
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noplanb
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Nov 2017, 11:37

"is no longer scorned by society" - means laws are easier to pass in support of it, and they in turn fertilise the culture to persecute/prosecute those who dare express an opinion otherwise, or stand on conscientious convictions.
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Rickles
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by Rickles » 24 Nov 2017, 11:49

What I find the most interesting to come out of this is that we may think we have, and act like we have freedom of speech, but, as it isn't part of our constitution, we don't. The government is just being nice to us.
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by narcdor » 24 Nov 2017, 12:09

I don't want a discussion of attrition so at the risk of another wall of text I'll be brief.

I asked for evidence of causality for your previous claims and was provided with broad anecdotes, and generally am as evidence, this is what I mean by not solid ground.

The majority of the country supports SSM, and I may stretch to equality for all regardless of sexual orientation, which includes progressive activists, so get used to it. Anything governed by the state, schools, the marriage act, social services, businesses will comply with this or suffer consequences as you have listed and rightly so. If you want to send your kids to a Steiner school or attend a church that says it's wrong or raise a child to believe in these things go ahead, just don't expect the public sphere to accept this as it will be viewed very dimly.
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Nov 2017, 12:33

"was provided with broad anecdotes" - then you may have to be more specific as to what you had in mind? - I thought you couldn't get much more specific than case law. Perhaps you are asking for something that is either logically or physically not possible?

"just don't expect the public sphere to accept this" - of course not. And if it pans out like it has overseas, then it appears that Christians/Jews will once again have an uptick in persecution for their beliefs. We are well on the road to a totalitarianist ethos, like elsewhere.
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 24 Nov 2017, 12:39

"as it isn't part of our constitution, we don't"
We rely (or should I say have relied), on the Westminster tradition and case law. This has served us and the UK well, as we inherited their system. But the Culture of Offence, weaponised by anti-discrimination laws, is changing all that.
If it continues - it will not be a free country, you will have to be careful what ideas you express, or face a legal process, which may include of course fines, threat of fines and or litigation, mob vigilante action (think boycotts or vandalism promoted by social media) - or sent for re-education (now where have I heard that before...?)
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 24 Nov 2017, 15:26

What is worse than having a grub for a Prime Minister?

Having desperate grub for a Prime Minister.

I am so sick of the political weaponisation of asylum seeker misery.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/politics ... ina_241117
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veebass
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 24 Nov 2017, 17:08

I posted earlier that the appointment of Ruddock to review religious protections in Australia would not end well.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/samesex-m ... zqukw.html
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by veebass » 25 Nov 2017, 04:47

A fact check on One Nation's claims about the content of the Safe Schools Program..

https://theconversation.com/amp/factche ... ign=buffer
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Re: Political Coverage By the Media in Our Country - PART TWO

Post by noplanb » 25 Nov 2017, 08:45

Its a pity when a pollie does not avail themselves of correct enough facts ("Safe Schools"), such that further disturbing facts get obscured in the rush to deny the obvious.
An example from an independent report:
...this particular program has some serious flaws. This paper seeks to draw attention to various problems in the Safe Schools materials which ought to be rectified if a program like this is to continue to be offered in schools.

First, the materials present statistics on same-sex attraction and transgender prevalence that have no valid scientific basis.
Secondly, they present sexual orientation as fixed when for school-aged adolescents it is very volatile, and many same-sex attractions are transitory.
Thirdly, they present gender as fluid when for about 99.5% of the population, there is complete congruence between sexual characteristics and gender identity.
Fourthly, they promote gender transitioning without the need for any medical and psychological guidance and even without parental knowledge or consent.
Finally, they offer potentially misleading legal advice to teachers. While a program of this kind may offer benefits for some young people, there is reason to be concerned that it may cause harm to other young people who experience same-sex attraction or gender confusion. There is certainly a place for an anti-bullying program that addresses the issues with which the Safe Schools program is concerned, but this program needs to be rescued from its progenitors.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2839084

Further to that we have the many quotes from parents concerned what their children are coming home and saying after being a recipient of this program - some teachers appear to still be speaking outside of what the present guidelines are.
It was worse before the program review and defunding, from Feb2016:
This program gives its support to an array of sexual experimentation; it suggests young people can bypass school and other internet filtering systems to access sites that carry porn and sex aids; it presents as safe and acceptable hormone therapy and surgery to become transgender; it presents as acceptable dangerous female chest binding so girls can appear gender ambiguous; it encourages schools to allow for cross-gender students to use the change rooms and toilets of the sex with which they want to identify; and it provides links to adult gay organisations.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.as ... 033&page=0
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