WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

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Tim
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Tim » 11 Feb 2018, 10:08

It will be difficult to find any commercial product which goes below 30hz as typically pro audio subwoofer are focussed on high spl rather than low frequency. Once you start reproducing the frequencies below 30hz at volume, the stresses are huge on the driver and it's ability to move a large volume of air. You'll be talking in quantities of 18-21" drivers.

Having said that look at something like the JTR Captivator. Or go the DIY route with a home built box and eq it to get the response you need with a miniDSP.

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DoctorJohn
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by DoctorJohn » 11 Feb 2018, 11:52

a powered sub would be ideal but would start getting expensive depending on how loud you want to go.

I think finding a decent driver and building a tuned cabinet for 25-30hz would be the way I’d end up going - especially if you are just experimenting.

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SneakyJak
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by SneakyJak » 11 Feb 2018, 12:18

I had started going down the path of DIY with some very welcome help from petebass. The only driver I could find was a Fane that went to 28hz. It was very expensive so I shelved the idea for the minute
Last edited by SneakyJak on 11 Feb 2018, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

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david1234
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by david1234 » 11 Feb 2018, 12:29

Look into Bag End's subwoofer sytems. The "ELF" or "Infra" stuff. Claimed response to 8Hz (not with great efficiency mind you, but a very clever set of tradeoffs).

The Australian distributor is slow to respond mind you, seeming to prefer to sell other stuff. But you might be able to pick one up.
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noplanb
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by noplanb » 11 Feb 2018, 20:02

I've built a number of boxes over the years using Thiele-Small parameters, and I'm still learning a thing or two.
I can say:
- you may only need a cab with -3dB of 35Hz rather than 30Hz; the extra is typically "made up" by the room you are in, to give an effective response at 30Hz
- it is not correct to say that: an amp needs more power to reproduce a given low frequency in a box capable of that low frequency
- it is correct to say that: an amp, set flat, dissipates virtually the same power in each of 2 cabs; one that goes to 60Hz, and the other going down to 40Hz. Ie, the amp is *already* delivering its full power across the spectrum for each cabinet - it is just that the 60Hz cab is much less efficient below its 60Hz
- it is hard to get an even response using any kind of signal processor - you would need to measure the box with pink noise and a flat microphone while the equalisation was made and set. In this case the amp *is* using more power than normal for the low frequencies - it is compensating for the lack of efficiency in the box
- You will hear a huge difference in a box going that low - your open-A down to open-B will all come *underneath* everyone else - you will need to turn the bass down at higher (typical) volumes due to Fletcher-Munson effect (I typically play at lower volumes so I have my Ampeg controls flat and get lots of tight low)
Specifics:
A quick look reveals that an Eminence CB15 can be boxed in 330L(!) with 34Hz tuning to give a -3dB of 34Hz
It would be more practical to have a 250L box and be -5dB at 34Hz
This would be a 98dB efficiency! Two cabs would give 104dB (but 'only' 600W thermal rating together)
There would be 'adequate' damping at 40Hz with very steep roll-off below (good)
Most player's open-E 'doubles' to sound not much different to their E2 - the above box would truly give you a thumping open-E, and a much better sounding open-B
Image
Last edited by noplanb on 22 Feb 2018, 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
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SneakyJak
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by SneakyJak » 12 Feb 2018, 14:01

noplanb wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 20:02
I've built a number of boxes over the years using Thiele-Small parameters, and I'm still learning a thing or two.
I can say:
- you may only need a cab with -3dB of 35Hz rather than 30Hz; the extra is typically "made up" by the room you are in, to give an effective response at 30Hz
- it is not correct to say that: an amp needs more power to reproduce a given low frequency in a box capable of that low frequency
- it is correct to say that: an amp, set flat, dissipates virtually the same power in each of 2 cabs; one that goes to 60Hz, and the other going down to 40Hz. Ie, the amp is *already* delivering its full power across the spectrum for each cabinet - it is just that the 60Hz cab is much less efficient below its 60Hz
- it is hard to get an even response using any kind of signal processor - you would need to measure the box with brown noise and a flat microphone while the equalisation was made and set. In this case the amp *is* using more power than normal for the low frequencies - it is compensating for the lack of efficiency in the box
- You will hear a huge difference in a box going that low - your open-A down to open-B will all come *underneath* everyone else - you will need to turn the bass down at higher (typical) volumes due to Fletcher-Munson effect (I typically play at lower volumes so I have my Ampeg controls flat and get lots of tight low)
Specifics:
A quick look reveals that an Eminence CB15 can be boxed in 330L(!) with 34Hz tuning to give a -3dB of 34Hz
It would be more practical to have a 250L box and be -5dB at 34Hz
This would be a 98dB efficiency! Two cabs would give 104dB (but 'only' 600W thermal rating together)
There would be 'adequate' damping at 40Hz with very steep roll-off below (good)
Most player's open-E 'doubles' to sound not much different to their E2 - the above box would truly give you a thumping open-E, and a much better sounding open-B
Image

Really appreciate the time you put into this response. Thanks, very helpful.

Another member of the forum has very graciously offer to let me try before laying money down on a Schroeder 18L (35 Hz - 16 kHz) Hoping this will do the trick.

This conversation has sparked a revisit of the DIY cab idea. Can’t be any harder than building basses I assume

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Aussie Mark
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Aussie Mark » 12 Feb 2018, 14:27

The discontinued SWR Big Ben 18" goes down to 25hz

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Rocksolid
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Rocksolid » 12 Feb 2018, 15:56

Frequency range of Eden 210 xst cabs is stated at 30hz - 14 khz. I had 2 of these for ages and enjoyed them. Often had to back off the lows.

Might be worth a look.
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SneakyJak
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by SneakyJak » 12 Feb 2018, 18:24

Rocksolid wrote:
12 Feb 2018, 15:56
Frequency range of Eden 210 xst cabs is stated at 30hz - 14 khz. I had 2 of these for ages and enjoyed them. Often had to back off the lows.

Might be worth a look.
Appears to be a second hand eden at bass centre for $699. Does that sound reasonable?

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Rocksolid
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Rocksolid » 12 Feb 2018, 20:11

I sold mine for $700 a piece, so yes.
Gear:Fender I Quilter I Berg I Tech 21 I Zoom l Line 6 I Aguilar I Boss I Broughton l sfx l EQD l SD I TCE l MIPRO I 1964ears

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Petebass
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Petebass » 12 Feb 2018, 20:54

FWIW, I'm yet to put a commercial cab on my test bench that actually hits the frequencies as claimed. Some companies exaggerate more than others, and I'm afraid Eden were amongst the worst I came across. That's based on my tests of the XLT range. I've not tested the XST but not ears tell me the low end claims on those are also exaggerated.

Something to consider - when a company days "can do 25Hz", is that at -0dB, -3dB, -12dB, -3,865.767dB? They'll never tell you.
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noplanb
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by noplanb » 12 Feb 2018, 22:07

They'll never tell you.
Too true - I've just been going through some Thiele-Smalls for the B&C range, as used in the Schroeders - very underwhelming. Nothing special about how low they can go, but the power handlings are very good. The neos (like neos) fit a smaller cab for just a bit worse f3 than a ferrite, but are of course a lot lighter.
The 18s will give amazing power handling, better SPLs, in a bit bigger box than a "manufacturer" (under-)size box that a 15 would go in - but practically the same f3 as 15 with ferrite, and with the trade-off of high roll-off starting around 1.5kHz instead of 2kHz (for a 15).
Try as I might (with the most likely looking drivers) I could not get a nicely shaped response graph with an f3 better than 40Hz for their 15s, and 37Hz for their 18s.
Unless you are looking for huge power handling (so you can crank up a high-Q (narrow) parametric boost at 35Hz!?), you would be just as well off with a well-designed 12.
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Petebass
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by Petebass » 13 Feb 2018, 07:01

Has Schroeder switched to B&C drivers? The last time I looked inside one was a 1210 (non-neo) and it had an Eminence Delta 12LF and an Eminence 10" (exactly which escapes me right now). I thought Markbass were the only ones using B&C across the range. But as always, I could be wrong and things can change.
* 2 Stingray 5's (one heavily modded), Ibanez SR805, Ashbory, + more...
* Carvin B1500, Epifani PS1000, Ashdown Superfly amps.
* Lots of DIY neo/lightweight cabs including one made from composites http://www.ozbassforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2546

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noplanb
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by noplanb » 13 Feb 2018, 07:08

Looks like about half their range lists as B&C drivers - the rest I couldn't see a specific name.
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tom once dead
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Re: WTB - cab freq range down to 30hz

Post by tom once dead » 13 Feb 2018, 13:57

From memory the Ampeg 410HLF handles down to 28hz but its at -3 or -10db or something.

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